The Gaming Den

Most skill-based systems charge the same amount of [whatever] for Perception and Craft: Basketweaving. Some of them give you a consolation prize, like +1 on Lying rolls for 5 dots of Gambling, but every civilian skill is a terrible point sink.

This is clearly bullshit.

I'd like my face guy to be a master poker player as well; there are plenty of cool guys in media who contextualize competitive interaction as poker. But I can either spend a reasonable amount of points and lose every poker game against actual master pokers; or I can spend the kind of points I would spend becoming a master marksman or a world-class hacker ... in order to win maybe two scripted events over an entire extended campaign.

There are maybe 10 real skills in a given system. Anything else, stuff like being a helicopter pilot in a game that isn't about chase scenes or being a brain surgeon in a game that isn't about alien mind control parasites is worth 1 line of text on a character sheet and 1 accounting unit in whatever system you use (1 freebie point in World of darkness).

That 1-point "gambling" skill on your character sheet includes in-depth knowledge of the rules (and tournament rules) of poker, blackjack and so on, including the statistics to know the odds of any hand or development on the table, and knowledge of who's who, as well as some sort of gambling reputation and a few card tricks.

So, the casino showdown from Casino Royale? An extended contest of the relevant social skills. Alien Genius vs. local chess champion for the fate of the world? Mastermind vs. Mastermind, with bug-eyes taking -4 for not knowing this Earthling War Simulation.

so, you would rather play poker than an RPG, but it seems you suck at both. is that what you are saying?

Skills are simply a bad way of handling that sort of thing.

It would probably be better instead, to have a number of character background details that can be used to contribute to a variety of related situations and possibly provide immunity to iocane powder.

Well, this thread got me to finally start typing some stuff for my fantasy heartbreaker up, so here's a summary of how I'm handling the 'civilian' skills (they get called talents) and the real skills. If there's interest in it (or even if there's not) I'll type up a whole skill chapter SRD style and shove it in IMOI.

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I've seen some discussion about how the d20 skill system makes you invest the same amount of resources into the 'useless' skills as it does the useful ones. I started work on my own fantasy heartbreaker a while back (and haven't really worked on it for months) and did a rough draft of a skill system as part of that. It was all done by hand (I had pretty much no computer access at the time), so as part of digitizing this stuff I figured I'd put up a summary of it to get some feedback.

Since this is meant to work with my on fantasy heartbreaker, there are some things meant to work with it that are different than standard d20. I'm using four ability scores: Might, Agility, Mind, and Spirit. This is mostly for simplification and to get rid of dump stats, but partially to distinguish the system. In another effort to make the game more accessible, I've taken the Pathfinder model of having maximum ranks = level, and having training in a class skill give you a +3 bonus. Finally, no ability score actually gives you extra ranks to spend on skills, each class gets a flat number of ranks per level. Aside from these things, I'm making some assumptions in this overview when using the same sort of language the SRD skill chapter uses, I assume you know what trained only means, that ACP stands for armor class penalty, etc.

Skills

The skills from the SRD have been consolidated into 19 skills total. However, many skills now have 'subskills'. Subskills are used to perform tasks that are part of that skill, but are distinct enough to merit its own classification. This allows you to grant bonuses to specific subskills in instances where it is necessary for system granularity. This alleviates the problem Pathfinder has with cyclopses getting better at hearing because they have a big eye. A bonus to a skill applies to all subskills.

Skill	Ability	ACP	Trained Only	Subskills
Acrobatics	Agility	Yes	-	Tumble*
Alchemy	Mind	-	Yes	-
Arcana	Mind	-	Yes	Devices (Arcane)*, Knowledge (Arcane)*, Spellcraft (Arcane)*
Athletics	Might	Yes	-	Climb¤, Jump¤, Swim*¤
Concentration	Might	-	-	-
Deception	Spirit	-	-	Disguise, Intimidate
Fly	Agility	Yes	-	-
Insight	Spirit	-	-	-
Linguistics	Mind	-	-	-
Mechanics	Mind	-	Yes	Devices (Mechanical)*, Knowledge (Engineering)*
Nature	Spirit	-	Yes	Devices (Wild)*, Knowledge (Nature)*, Spellcraft (Wild)*
Perception	Mind	-	-	Listen, Spot
Ride	Agility	Yes	-	-
Stealth	Agility	Yes	-	-
Social	Spirit	-	-	Knowledge (Society)*
Survival	Mind	-	Yes	Knowledge (Adventuring)*
Tactics	Mind	-	Yes	Knowledge (History and Warfare)*
Theology	Spirit	-	Yes	Devices (Divine)*, Knowledge (Divine)*, Spellcraft (Divine)*
Thievery	Agility	Yes	Yes	Forgery*

*Subskill requires you to be trained in parent skill.
¤Subskill suffers from ACP


Talents

Talents are a new category of things you can spend your ranks on. Talents grant a character abilities that are useful or interesting, but are only worth a minimal investment of resources. Each talent has a cost in ranks, once you've put that many ranks into it you have that talent. Talents that require more than 1 rank to get always have some sort of partial benefit for having less than the maximum number of ranks invested in it, but you aren't considered to have that talent yet for the purposes of meeting requirements.

Talent	Cost in Ranks	Requirement	Brief Description
Armor Training, Light	2	-	Each rank gets you proficiency with one light armor, 2 ranks gets you all of them.
Armor Training, Medium	3	Armor Training Light	Each rank gets you proficiency with one medium armor, 3 ranks gets you all of them.
Armor Training, Heavy	4	Armor Training Medium	Each rank gets you proficiency with one heavy armor, 4 ranks gets you all of them.
Beast Master	2	Trained in Nature	Use Nature to train any creature with the Beast type.
Brutal Intimidator	1	Trained in Deception	Use Might instead of Spirit on Intimidation checks
Combat Mount	1	-	A mount with this talent does not need to be controlled during combat.
Craft	2	-	Make mundane items.
Escape Artist	1	-	+3 bonus to checks made to escape a grapple or bindings.
Heal	1	-	Use the Nature skill to perform first aid.
Literacy	1	-	You can read.
Perform	1	-	Each time you take this talent, you learn how to play another type of instrument.
Profession	1	-	You are trained in a vocation, and can try to earn a wage.
Shield Training, Small	2	-	Each rank gets you proficiency with one small shield, 2 gets you all of them.
Shield Training, Large	3	Small Shield Training	Each rank gets you proficiency with one large shield, 3 gets you all of them.
Speak Language	1	-	Each time you take this talent, you learn how to speak a new language.
Trained Swimmer	1	-	You move at half speed with a successful swim check, and can perform a run action while swimming.
Use Rope	1	-	+3 to any check made that involves a rope.
Weapon Training, Simple	2	-	Each rank gets you proficiency with one simple weapon, 2 gets you all of them.
Weapon Training, Martial	4	Simple Weapon Training	Each rank gets you proficiency with one martial weapon, 4 gets you all of them.
Weapon Training, Exotic	6	Martial Weapon Training	Each rank gets you proficiency with one exotic weapon, 6 gets you all of them.

Bonus Ranks

Classes, feats, and other things can grant you bonus ranks. Bonus ranks often have limitations on what they can be spent on. If you get reimbursed any bonus ranks, you can only spend them on skills or talents that those ranks could have been spent on originally. Additionally, all characters have a number of bonus ranks equal to their Mind score that must be spent on talents.

I remember some earlier thread about how skills should be done the other way around: your 'civilian hobbies' ARE your functional skills

Like Skill: Played Football would translate into things like ducking and weaving past opposition, catching and throwing the macguffin, or strategizing in a pinch.

I don't think it was developed any further than that though.

I... I could actually see that working for a game that had the right tone and theme. Like if there was a Scooby Doo RPG, I would almost be disappointed if there wasn't a Football skill.

There's also Black Forest.